Fog of war | Justin Neal

[Justin] (0:00 - 0:20)

And when I'm talking at that level and about that kind of stuff that I've done and the type of work that is, and these companies are like, we're just trying to hire one ops person to do X, Y, and Z and build like a playbook and a CTA, right? Like, it's like there's a mismatch there. Like, obviously, I could do that, right?

And I'm more than comfortable talking about that.

[Dillon] (0:28 - 0:43)

What's up, lifers, and welcome to The Daily Standup with Lifetime Value, where we're giving you fresh new customer success ideas every single day. I got my man JP with us, JP, Steve Jobs Frost. Can you say hi, please?

[JP] (0:44 - 0:47)

In the great words of Steve Jobs, wagwan.

[Dillon] (0:51 - 0:55)

And we have Rob with us. Rob, can you say hi?

[Rob] (0:56 - 1:00)

In the great words of my chemical romance, welcome to the black parade.

[Dillon] (1:01 - 1:22)

Yeah, that is appropriate. So for anybody who's not on video, JP wears black just about every single time we record. That's why I called him Steve Jobs.

nd that is why Rob made a mid-: 2000

[Justin] (1:23 - 1:25)

Good day, everyone. Hello, hello. Nice to see you.

[Dillon] (1:25 - 1:33)

Good day. Nice to see you, too. And I'm your host.

My name is Dillon Young. Justin, thank you so much for being here. Can you please introduce yourself?

[Justin] (1:33 - 1:48)

Hi, everyone. My name is Justin Neal. I am a CS strategist, so to speak, with about 10 years of experience in the CSOps slash digital CS space.

So here to chat things in that direction with you fine folks.

[Dillon] (1:49 - 2:33)

Justin, tell me you don't know Rob too well without telling me you don't know Rob too well. When you call yourself a CS strategist, I watch Rob's face get redder. He's ready to jump through the screen and fight you because of the ambiguity around the term.

But I'm going to give you a chance to redeem yourself. All right. I'm trying to create a tension.

All good stories have tension. So let me just manufacture something, please. Let me cook.

Justin, you know what we do here? We ask one simple question of every single guest. And that is why do you hate Rob?

No, I'm kidding. It is what is on your mind when it comes to customer success. So why don't you tell us what that is for you?

[Justin] (2:34 - 2:42)

e words of another famous mid: 2000

[Dillon] (2:42 - 2:55)

I like this. We're very old. We're making that known to everybody.

Yep. But please elaborate. You can't just lay that out there and not have some sort of backing to it.

[Justin] (2:55 - 3:38)

I think what I will say is that a lot has changed in CS over the last obviously 10 years, but especially over the last probably six months. And as someone who has shifted from a large enterprise or managing CS ops, managing digital CS to the being on the market twice, most recently, unfortunately, in December, January, I have had the unfortunate experience of biting that, having a taste and trying to understand what's going on, going through that experience and learning and realizing that there's a lot of mess, a lot of confusion, a lot of uncertainty around all of this. So trying to wrap my head around that and share my thoughts.

[Dillon] (3:39 - 4:00)

And so let's bring it back to your quote, which was this ain't a scene. It's an arms race. It is an arms race.

I mean, I think we're seeing that this thing is moving so fast. It's hard to take notes and have those be relevant in another six months about how to do your job. This ain't a scene being, is your theory that customer success isn't disappearing?

Is that sort of like what that means for you? It's going to evolve.

[Justin] (4:01 - 4:52)

I think CS as a whole entire process, practice has changed almost dramatically. And I think what I'm seeing is what I think works before the idea of what CS was in the nice, fluffy words around adoption, expansion, helping customers, building journeys, all of that, that sounded great and sounded fun and promising. And it was meant for people who are interested in building those relationships and showing that value and finding that place in business in the world for those people that's going away.

The idea of that and the idea of this kind of vague fluffiness of what that might be is no longer an option at a lot of companies. And they're no longer looking for someone who can talk that talk. They're looking for someone who can strictly walk that walk and do it in a way that works exactly the way they want it to.

[Dillon] (4:52 - 5:14)

horn and give us another mid-: 2000

[JP] (5:14 - 5:20)

Oh, my gosh. Another. Who's is some 41's ex Good Charlotte?

[Dillon] (5:22 - 5:25)

I mean, you can't just say the names of the bands.

[JP] (5:25 - 5:31)

I know, but I'm trying to think like, whoa, wait, who would even call Avril Lavigne? Is that I don't know.

[Dillon] (5:33 - 5:35)

You're on the edge, I feel like.

[JP] (5:35 - 5:39)

Let's go Avril Lavigne. Why you got to make things so complicated?

[Dillon] (5:40 - 5:41)

Yeah, there you go.

[JP] (5:44 - 6:06)

Justin, you know what you're saying? I'm really I really like what you're saying. What I'm interested in is and just keep it real.

Keep it all the way funky here on the podcast. What is the reason that you think that this change has happened? What do you attribute it to?

[Justin] (6:07 - 7:13)

I think there's external factors that are that are beyond a lot of us, right? Larger economic issues, the larger tech world kind of inter collapsing and many, many people now being out of work and these companies having to tighten all this and tighten their ships on what they're looking for and really trying to directly tie revenue, everything they do, including roles, including jobs. So I think part of it is is that is you have to put X plus Y equals Z.

And where does CS what does CS look like in that formula? And I think it's then at this larger level of people who have maybe been maybe more strategic or less carrying a quota or doing that work themselves or maybe less customer facing or in my role world, which has been ops and digital where it's not. I don't own a book of customers.

I build systems and platforms for CS, right? So that doesn't necessarily equal dollars and cents per se. So the idea of having to explain that and fighting that narrative just to even get in the room, right, has become much, much larger and a much bigger mountain to climb.

[JP] (7:14 - 8:03)

So when you when you say that, just for one second, as an ops person, does this mean that when you're going into to say because you mentioned being on the market, do you think you face like a particular challenge because you're looking you were looking for ops roles? And it seems like if a company is going to invest in ops, that seems to be a pretty, I guess I'll make the connection optimistic thing for a company to do. Right.

As opposed to like if they're not invested in any CSPs. So I'm interested in like, do you find that, you know, you also mentioned this shift from these bigger companies, I think you had said to maybe something different. Like, I'm just curious about like where you are now and what you're finding you have to do now in given the situation you just described.

[Justin] (8:04 - 9:13)

Okay. Yeah. So when I talk kind of my experience, it's bigger picture, it's IBM, it's big companies that I've built large, massive systems to support a large CS org with, and not even just CS, sometimes it's support, it's TAMs, it's sales, all these post sales roles and tools and platforms to support that, which can be, you know, one or two main ones, but also several other maybe you have to connect to it.

So it's like this huge infrastructure and this huge, massive weight of work that I've had to kind of work through and obviously with the team with other folks, but to manage that. Right. And when I'm talking at that level and about kind of stuff that I've done and the type of work that is, and these companies are like, we're just trying to hire one ops person to do X, Y, and Z and build like a playbook and a CTA, right?

Like, it's like, there's a mismatch there. Like, obviously I could do that. Right.

And I'm more than comfortable talking about that, but because I'm shooting up here and they're looking for essentially one of these, one person that can kind of checkbox A, B, and C, if I'm finding that there's just such a mismatch of where's the in between and where's, where's the space I can play in that's going to feel comfortable and natural and a fit for the experience that I have.

[Rob] (9:13 - 9:25)

Rob, jump in. Sugar. We're going down.

No, no. Go ahead. Go ahead.

When I hear ops, I think this is the Anthem. Throw all your hands up. No, when I think of ops, so actually...

[Dillon] (9:25 - 9:25)

JP's confused.

-: 10:42

I'm speaking French to JP. It's all downhill from here. All right, I'm done.

I'm done. Anyway, so when I hear about ops and I heard what you said, Dillon, around the quantifiables, I think that was really good because throughout the conversation, I was broadening my definition of what these quantifiables are. Like Justin, I think you helped broaden.

If you asked me at the beginning of this call, like, what do I see as the quantifiables? I actually would have said some of the measures and metrics associated with the elements that you called out as being potentially too fluffy, which is kind of interesting. I pulled up some notes.

This is an interview I did in: 2021

Good notes. I have everything written down. And it was interesting because I asked someone, how did he define operations?

And he explained it's four elements. It's process management, it's enablement, it's insights and data management, and then it's the tools and systems. And which is funny because I think a lot of us, we think ops, we just think tools and systems, but there's so many other added layers to operations, especially when we think about like even nuanced applications, like just within customer success and CS operations.

So anyway, it's got my gears turning. I hope that's a helpful way to think about the problem, but I'm curious if that aligns with how you see the space, Justin.

[Justin] (: 10:43

Rob, I mean, what you're saying is exactly what I think. And the four different pieces to that pie, that's exactly what I'm kind of meaning. I talked to all first pieces and I kind of that barter picture of there's many different things that ops does, but roles companies, it's system, it's tool, it's check one of those boxes and do exactly that.

And that's all I want from this role, right?

[Dillon] (: 11:06

Justin, how much of that with the time we have left, how much of that do you think is them not understanding what you and Rob just described, that it's this multidisciplinary or multi-component piece? Or do you think it's got more to do with, oh, he talks real high level. I think we can't afford him.

Which one is it, do you think?

[Justin] (: 11:27

A little of both. I mean, I think again, because of the shift in CS and the whole microscope of what CS in general looks like and how to justify those hires, how to justify that headcount, it goes even further than deeper in that into ops and what you actually need from an ops perspective versus what you think you might want. So I think it kind of has a two double-edged sword there.

[Dillon] (: 11:49

Right on. Love it. Justin, that is our time.

I love this topic. I am a newly converted fan of CS ops. I love hearing about it.

I love the way you guys are putting the puzzle together and I can't wait to hear what happens on your career journey. So please come back in a couple of months, knock on wood, but I guarantee you'll have a role by the time you come back and let's talk about it. Until then, we have to say goodbye.

Thanks for the memories.

[VO] (: 12:45

Advertising on The Daily Standup and the Lifetime Value Media Network. Please reach out via email to advertising at lifetimevaluemedia.com. Find us on YouTube at Lifetime Value and find us on the socials at Lifetime Value Media.

Until next time.